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Post by spud on Sept 2, 2023 18:58:37 GMT -8
84211 is what i found . It replaces the 8467 rotor that comes in all amc pro billet distributers. I ordered another cap too so i can butcher a hole in my old one and do it right.
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Post by landbarge on Sept 3, 2023 5:40:23 GMT -8
Several years back, I did that with a motorcraft. It always favored one side of the post. Since the reluctor is held with a split pin, I tossed the pin and drilled/tapped the reluctor for a 4-40 set screw.
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Post by spud on Sept 3, 2023 6:08:20 GMT -8
I thought about it some, enough to get confused. About moving the pickup( the vacuum advance does this) about redrilling and reindexing the gear to the shaft ( that would be a real hail mary proceedure) moving the cap would be an obvious ( however difficult) idea. I never considered the reluctor, but it makes sense. Oh well msd has an elegant 52$ fix coming in the mail. All i gotta do is drill a hole in a 54$ cap. It’ll still work but wont be near as weather proof. I guess i can epoxy it up. I need to put more epoxy on the shopping list. I was lookng at the rotor tip and cap posts, and you can see the burn marks on the extreme leading parts of the conductors. If i rotate the distributer for more advance and rev the engine to get maximun advace, the spark jumps to the trailing terminals for some very interesting backfiring.
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Post by landbarge on Sept 3, 2023 6:32:43 GMT -8
Polarity on the pickup causes some goofy shit firing when you run an external box.
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Post by spud on Sept 5, 2023 5:47:28 GMT -8
I dunno about the polarity thing it hasnt been a problem for me yet. I’ve had a bunch of msd stuff. I havent used it exclusively by no means. I has been good stuff. I have a couple different caps modded to check phasing, its generally ok most times. I’m pretty sure thats my problem now and i will put a hole in this cap so i can tune the adjustable rotor. They say the hole lets out ionized air that can contribute to crossfire and misfire, which is fine but on the other hand it lets in everything else. So i got a new cap coming too. I just cant keep track of all the one offs and modded stuff it takes troubleshooting stuff. Just to add to that i ordered a couple solid lifter cams for the amc six from crower. Soild lifters! Lol. Going to try the crower 44310 mild street grind. They call it “ pro street” not sure why. Its a 1800-4500 rpm profile for strong low to mid torque. Also ordered the 44311 cam for more racy work. ( 2000-5000 rpm) Think i’ll try it in a stroker if i ever get a block bored for it.
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Post by PHAT69AMX on Sept 5, 2023 13:11:24 GMT -8
Consider the Rotor Button and Tip are at a locked angle relative to the Reluctor. So Rotor Button and Reluctor both rotate together when mechanical advance actuates. Single the Rotor / Reluctor angle is fixed, Phasing is not affected by this rotation. It does change when the fire takes place relative to crankshaft location, since the distributor main shaft itself is locked into relative location to the crankshaft.
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Post by spud on Sept 5, 2023 15:06:02 GMT -8
I will get a reminder on what happens soon enough. Phasing is more about where the pickup/ reluctor is in relation to the cap. And less about where you think the rotor is to the cap. And “eyeballing” your phasing is pretty impossible. Moving ( cap rotor reluctor trigger what have you) around can change phase, thats why its best to check it and actually know. I can imagine all day and be wrong.
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Post by 69Rebel on Sept 5, 2023 18:47:12 GMT -8
I thought this was kind of a good video on the subject.
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Post by spud on Sept 6, 2023 10:32:43 GMT -8
I watched it, found it had some good info, and he has his own perspective, but i didnt get core valid info on phasing and ACTUALLY checking phase, i did seem to get some rather fuzzy disinfo on what he thinks you can do to “ properly phase” a rotor, which i do not believe is valid info, that i am more inclined to regard as opinionated conjecture, which relates to installing a distributer so the rotor points somewhere you think it should. ( yet it might not). Because like PHAT pointed out, and i believe is correct, the mechanical advance might move the rotor and reluctor, but since it doesnt move the pickup, the actual phase doesnt change. If he is betting the mechanical advance( of that fully mechanical distributer he is using as example) is going to affect a change in phase, and his eyeball estimate of dropping the distributer in where he thinks its gonna be at crank advance when the points open… seems definitely flawed. Visualing by estimation isnt actually checking phase. In my mind the jury is out on his alleged understanding. And certainly he didn’t check the phase. Fun vid but i’m not getting a solid factual feeling about it. I think he’s got a certain amount of him just saying what he believes. He is demonstrating with a centrifugal advance distributer, and like phat accurately pointed out, centrifugal advance does not change phasing. If you could see it, when spark occurs and the timing light lights, the rotor tip doesnt move or change phase. If the rotor and cap were transparant, you would see the weights fly out and the center shaft rotate away from the cap terminals. So him posistioning the rotor at an estimated point away from the terminal is an assumption thats where its gonna be when the “spark jumps” is in error. Phasing only changes with min vaccuum and max vacuum advance, centrigugal advance does not alter phase. Movement of the points or pickup does. Phasing is one thing with centrifugal advance and a whole different deal with vacuum advance. With a combination of both types of advance you can compromise and set phase to be “ after the terminal” at low vacuum , and it should sweep to a equal point “ before the terminal” at max vacuum advance. If you have a full centrigugal or locked advance, you set it right on the terminal. Because thats where it should be, not at some assumed and calculated point before the terminal. I honestly think he’s completely in error with that and his video is nonsense to make him money (and make other people learn through trial and error) so all this bench conjecture being considered a reconsidered and disconsidered, i am going to see what happens with a hole in the cap @#1 terminal and a timing light, which is the proven method for establishing true phase. I think he is full of shit. Which has no real value. Once i know for fact, well i guess i will shut the fuck up about it
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Post by PHAT69AMX on Sept 6, 2023 19:10:27 GMT -8
With distributor in hand put a mark on the housing inline with the #1 cap post. Remove the cap. Use a vacuum hand pump and pull vacuum advance all the way in. Rotate the rotor/reluctor/shaft into the fire position. Mechanical advance will not change this fire position, it does not change the fixed angle between rotor tip and reluctor tip. In that fire position the rotor tip should be dead centered on the cap post mark on the housing, with vacuum advance pulled all the way in.
Using a 3-inch diameter for the rotor button tip, a 20 crank degree vac adv can moves the pickup 10 degrees, 10 degrees on a 3-inch dia circumference is 0.26 inches, a 1/4 inch, so with no vac adv the back corner of the rotor tip will be at the trailing edge of the post... as vac adv deploys the rotor tips tends more centered on the cap post. sounds good anyway, eh ?
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Post by spud on Sept 7, 2023 7:30:24 GMT -8
It sounds ok if you can work with a bunch of detail, and the fact is your carefull calculations MUST be accurate,( and its still liable to be off...) And AGAIN, I would caution the vacuum advance is what changes phase. Mechanical advance does not change phase. Phase is all about that “ fixed angle” and its relationship to the pickup. If you want full throttle power most, you probably will have locked timing. Even with locked timing you should check and adjust phase. A strictly mechanical advance curve requires the same check and reset to rotor right on post when firing, for optimum spark and least resistance. Once set it wont move. When you have a street rig with a vacuum advance, you can set the phasing so its to one side of the post with zero vacuum ( full throttle) and full vacuum ( idle or off idle depending on if you have ported or manifold vacuum) the rotor would be on the equal and opposite posistion on the other side of terminal post. WHEN I HAVE BOTHERED with checking rotor phase, i have followed msd’s guidelines, ignorant of the dynamics and actual function, and checked and tweeked the phase with vacuum disconnected. This has given me no insight into what happens when vacuum takes over, but at full throttle you will have the best phase when you need it most. It might not be best for cruising. You gotta compromise one way or the other with vacuum advance. And as far as the proceedure outlined by PHAT, i respectfully would not do it, personally. I am more concerned with what the timing light says and not what i think “ should” be good. What i “ think” has always proven to be different that what it “ is”… and after all, you set your timing with a LIGHT, not by angles and diameters measured by inches multiplied by 3.14 and all that bullshit. You set your timing with a light. You check your phasing with a light” AS WELL” I appreciate your input PHAT, you have brought quite a bit to “ light” here…😁
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Post by PHAT69AMX on Sept 8, 2023 11:42:23 GMT -8
Posted video is for ecu controlled spark and a whole different animal and does not really apply when using an old analog mechanical and vacuum advance distributor imho. Distributor in the video appears to have neither.
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Post by spud on Sept 9, 2023 8:54:51 GMT -8
Ok so i watched it again. He has a couple diferent distributers as examples with vacuum and centrifugal advance, apparantly to confuse his victims, He mentions mechanical and vacuum advance tech in passing and completely avoids its ideosychracies, but the true focus on a nebulous crank triggered electronic controlled curve, which requires a locked distributer. That should be very easy to phase . Cut a hole in the cap and strobe it so the rotor fires right on the terminal. But since it has a full electronic curve phasing is going to vary across the curve, making that application completely stupid to phase and will never be phased at anything but mid curve. Since he doesnt get into anything that relates to doing the simple direct check of using a timing light, i lost interest. I get why phasing a locked distributer with an electronic curve is important ( yet not difficult, as long as you dont listen to him, and just drill a hole and use a light) because a full electronic curve changes phasing drastically, ( and its probably really misguided to even rely on a distributer with a crank trigger and electronic curve) other than having no relevance to what i’m doing so it put me to sleep twice. Sure i wasted my life watching that shit. But i did find my msd tech documents and a bottle of aspirin so problem solved. The msd billet whatever piece of shit was way out of phase. So when msd says they “check phasing on all their billet distributers” well they are either liars , stupid, blind, dont care much about amc applications or like fucking you over. Thanks msd. Since the amc six pro billet is the most expensive pro billet you sell, and its fucked up, you should give them away, or at the very least sell them with an adjustable rotor so we can fix your fuckup
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Post by Captain Awesome on Sept 9, 2023 12:03:40 GMT -8
MSD stands for Mostly Sucks Dick.
You'd go thru 100-1000 MSDs Boxes to a Crane Box. Only good thing is, MSD rebuilds them Cheap. They last OK if mounted INSIDE the car. Anywhere under the hood. BZZZZT. Heat and moister cook them. But you can mount a Crane on the bottom side of as Boat, and drag it on land for 100 miles, and it's still good.
Yeah, I know this is about "Dizzy" phase. But they're stuff just sucks. The letters sound cool and fast tho.... MSD!!!!! I'm so kewl, I have a MSD! on my 327!!!!!! Cause 327 !!!! sounds Kewl too. Even tho all 327s!!!!!!!!!!! suck dick too.
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Post by spud on Sept 9, 2023 12:30:08 GMT -8
I won’t spoil my apparant good luck by commenting then.
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